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Author Topic: Linux to Geek.  (Read 13015 times)
roosterbaby!
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« on: May 31, 2009, 07:03:46 AM »

Darn straight! I like Linux but It's nothing more than a toy. If Red Hat, Suse, Ubuntu ever get together and stop trying to be mini MS's, I'd be worried for MS, but as It stands, the almighty dollar Is dictating the Linux OS right now. Linux Is great for people that don't need to run "most" popular programs, or even for someone who just wants to surf the Internet and print some papers once In a while, but other than that, the only true competitor to MS Is Apple In the OS market. Yes Apple may be a closed OS, but so Is Linux, kinda Ironic considering apple uses Linux code. I call Linux a closed OS because It's most definitely not a mass market or even geek market. I think even hard core geeks are going to get sick of messing with Linux. As some of us know when you get older, you just want sh*t to work and the only thing I want to geek on Is hardware.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 06:38:20 PM by roosterbaby! » Logged
rambaldi
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« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2009, 09:25:06 AM »

What I have found is Linux is hard get working but once it is you are pretty sweet, windows though is easy to get working but once it is it will inevitably brake itself. This makes Linux perfect for certain users (for example older people who only use the net etc and have a younger IT specialist relation to set it up for them) but for anyone that uses their computer for more than just the basics (or softwar development) it is too much of a hassle
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Bono
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2009, 12:57:56 AM »

Or maybe you are so used to MS way of thinking that linux is too hard for you. Sure linux is not easy but if you dedicate some time, it will work perfectly. Ubuntu is really close to Windows and good thing is once you setup it, it won't break and most of hardware is recognized automatically.
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rambaldi
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« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2009, 01:13:31 AM »

The problem I found with Ubuntu is I got it working perfectly then when the next release rolled out it broke some of the stuff I had working (sound in the latest release, video play back prior to that which works now)
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ghell
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« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2009, 01:32:38 PM »

Windows, Mac and Linux all have things that they are good at.

For example, Macs are for people who want a stylish, expensive (expense as a status symbol - like a Rolex watch or a Bentley) computer that is perfectly fine for web browsing and checking your emails. Celebrities fall into this category.

Linux (and other similar things like BSD) has many specialised uses. Things that it does really well. Because they are so specialised, they tend to be harder to set up and configure. Most email providers use something like postfix on Linux, for example. Linux is moving into desktop computing and is quite capable but only as capable as Mac.

Windows is more for mainstream every day desktop computing. It's a jack of all trades and a master of none (or at least of few - it masters games for example).



I run both Windows and Linux about evenly. I don't run Mac at all.


P.S. if your software breaks when you upgrade it, don't upgrade it Wink With new versions of Linux distributions, there is probably nothing extra that you actually need in the new version anyway. The same thing happens if you try to "upgrade" Windows XP to Windows Vista. If you want to do it smoothly, back up all your data and just install it fresh because operating system upgrades are always rubbish.

I have had no problems running Debian for years. I don't have any Sarge (3) boxes but my Etch (4) boxes were left as Etch and and when Debian 5 (Lenny) was released, I only installed it to my new laptop. The rest still run Etch and still work fine.
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Bono
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« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2009, 07:14:46 PM »

His software broke because he didn't used "stable" version...this is same as you did upgrade from xp to 7 and complained that some things are broken.

For smaller servers and workstation I mainly use debian and stable updates...in 10 years maybe few times something break.
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ghell
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« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2009, 09:38:37 PM »

I think this applies to anyone who uses Ubuntu, since Ubuntu is based on the testing branch of Debian AFAIK. Still, most people have no problems upgrading.

I have to admit, I used Debian Lenny (testing) on my old laptop. Etch was just too far behind and a lot of hardware compatibility that new laptops need (e.g. wireless, suspend/hibernate, etc) was just completely missing. Lenny stable seems to be much more compatible with modern laptops than Etch stable was when it was released.
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rambaldi
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« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2009, 11:48:19 PM »

Quote
P.S. if your software breaks when you upgrade it, don't upgrade it

Unfortunately I needed some of the newer features so I had to upgrade, but the upgrade did fix old errors, always seems to be the problem lol thats life I guess.
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davidzo
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« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2009, 10:58:26 PM »

I call Linux a closed OS because It's most definitely not a mass market or even geek market. I think even hard core geeks are going to get sick of messing with Linux. As some of us know when you get older, you just want sh*t to work and the only thing I want to geek on Is hardware.
Obviously you don't know any hardcore geeks or even normal geeks. The people you thought of as Geeks may be marsians, but as far as i know geeks, few of them even consider fiddling in windows because it takes so much time to get things to work properly and start doing something, its really a hassle for most of them. Yeah, maybe if you get older, you just want the sh*t to work just like windose.

But as you stated in the first part of your post which i forgot to quote, Linux is not meant for that. Linux should behave on its own and not try to mimic windose or the fruitthemed gadget platforms.
With Unix oses like Irix or BSD there were many approaches for a GUI which may never have been used by a broad mass because of price and availability, but that does not mean, that these approaches were flawed.

Take the taskbar for example. The Theory is that these important menus should be somewhere easy to get to. So Apple decided it would be best located on one of the longer screen edges because the mouse is most likely to go there some time. the menu would be on one side of it and the program bar would hold the title. so you have to go to the taskbar, select the menu (startbutton in windose) in the corner to get to your programs menu or open up a file browser. in theory that is nice because you can do it with few mouse commands.
But instead of mooving the mouse to a screenedge or corner and clicking, wouldn't it be far easier to just rightclick to open up the program menu? On unix systems like the graphically far advanced Irix or the WorkstationOS Solaris, a rightclick opens the menu anywhere on the screen where you actually are. leftclick then selects and starts the application.  Why have most Xbased window manager changed this intuitive scheme for an archaic windows theme with a Program menu button in the corner?

What if you want to edit a picture or graphics? Nowadays you have to think of the Pictureformat, start the right application klick open and browse through the files or import it into a new document. Why all the hassle? All i want is my Picture, i dont want to know Corel Draw or Adobe Photoshop, if i wasn't brainwashed by M$ far ago, i would just open the place where my picture is first. In Windows i would then realize that the viewer with the file is associated to is not the program to edit that file and i have to klick right and through several unconvenient dialoge boxes to get it opened. One really needs to memorize about all these applications and which one to use best for which purpose, then start it and open the file with it. But why should i care about a Program name and file or format as a user? That is so abstract from what i want to do, i'm essentially thinking first about my data and what i want to do and not about adobe and that they probably have the right tool. Why not start a Filebrowser, select the file open a menu with rightklick with my file in the center and all the programms which can handle the format sorted around it? Then i just drag the file over the Program i chosed to use and it opens the thing like in good ol OS/2. When i want to save it, i dont want to have all these dialogues again, i want to put it right at the place i decide and not what the os wants me to try first. I could just drag the image into the filebrowser window and it would be saved at the point i let go off it, maybe with a rightclick during the letting off to close the application in the same movement. Would be much easier for new users to learn these Programs, wouldn't it?

Also why is a menu always with these drop down things, why do buttons all have a rectangle shape which is hard to hit? why not work with directions? as directions are essentially what i can do with the mouse. People have a hard time to browse through multiple very long context menus which pop up one after another and if u miss one you can probably start from the beginning. Why not just give a little push to the mouse in the right directen and there u go? Menus would be easiest if the options where distributed 360° around the mousecursor. Even if the mousecursor is at the edge of the screen the menu could start in a transparent window all over the screen always looking the same and always functioning the same intuitive way wether your mouse is at the edge of the screen or in the middle, just by recognition of the impulse direction. Think of crysis menu for your OS...

Why do most menus get sorted in an alphabetical order and get all mixed up again when i install a new program? I look for the program button at the same place where it always was until now. so if i distribute the program icons on the menuscreen evenly and next time i install a programm just put it between two other and scale the buttons accordingly, every program could sit at its original place and have its original direction in my 360° arch. also i could open up another 360°arch as another layer over the whole screen if one menuitem has a large additional context menu. Just rightclick to close the first layer of contextmenus. Multiple rightclick or escape and you're back at the desktop from as many nested complicated menus as you want. you can get through dozens of menus with just one rightclick and a few nuances of your mouse ina certain direction, without the risk of not hitting the right button or starting all over again with the menus.

There are so many ways to stand out and do things in an intelligent way and actually there are also some groups who make them into real working software (not with all these suggestions, as they are my own ideas though some share similarities with available software). Sadly all mainstream distros do not make use of these great inventions, as they all try to mimic windose and macOS and even though they do a lot better than their role models and sometimes even in advance of them(f.e. 3d desktop), they never really stand out. Its a shame to see Linux Distros like Ubuntu as a poor imitation of Softwaretrends in closed Software development. Linux open sauce should find its own asthetics and usage principles, it is not always the best way the more people do it. In fact the more people do it its probably not the best way as only few people know the right things to do but most just follow a suboptimal mass movement.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 11:39:24 PM by davidzo » Logged
rambaldi
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« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2009, 04:16:52 AM »

I call Linux a closed OS because It's most definitely not a mass market or even geek market. I think even hard core geeks are going to get sick of messing with Linux. As some of us know when you get older, you just want sh*t to work and the only thing I want to geek on Is hardware.
Obviously you don't know any hardcore geeks or even normal geeks. The people you thought of as Geeks may be marsians, but as far as i know geeks, few of them even consider fiddling in windows because it takes so much time to get things to work properly and start doing something, its really a hassle for most of them. Yeah, maybe if you get older, you just want the sh*t to work just like windose.
<snip> suboptimal mass movement.

Wow that GUI sounded pretty useful, specially when not using a standard mouse as your input method eg touchpad and to a lesser extent touchscreen, although I don't think it would work to well if you are doing a bit of work while avoiding the mouse (such as writing code or similar where you don't exactly want to reach for the mouse but can still get around using <alt> etc so long as u aren't one of those EMACS using people lol). Are there any developed distros that use this interface at all or is it just you musing?
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davidzo
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« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2009, 11:41:21 PM »

Its just my dreamOS, made up of some forgotten designs, some of my own ideas and some things i stepped on around the web.
there are some bad implementations of cake-shaped menus around, but they aren't really well maintained nor are they especially practical and useful. As far as i know none of them works directionbased, they all still use the mouse cursor for selection of the next point. There are some nice implementations of mouse gestures (opera browser).  With some reasearch one can still find a lot of windowmanagers which offer a unixlike applicatopnmenu (right mousebutton). although there are menus which offer drag and drop support where you can drop a file over a program icon (OSX, Windows), i've never heard of a menu which can grey out those programs with no support for that filetype. So thats a feature which still waits to be implemented.
For most of these features there is already some sourcecode to work on, but sadly most of these unusual projects are bad maintained and did not develop into a real desktop enviroment like those mainstream windowslike or macoslike gnomes and KDEs out there which everybody uses.
Sadly it does not seem, that the most common unix flavours can develop a taste of their own, they still massively rely on ingredients and spices which they copied out of closed source projects. Its really a shame...
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rambaldi
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« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2009, 12:41:58 PM »

Yeah it is a bit.

I think it has closed now but Open Office were doing a redesign of their GUI, calling for general design suggestions. It would have been good to get something in there, I don't know where they are going but I certainly hope it isn't the horrible ribbon inspired design that was initially proposed. Another example of a closed source horrible idea being copied (or at least the copy being suggested) in an open source project
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roosterbaby!
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2009, 06:48:16 PM »

I call Linux a closed OS because It's most definitely not a mass market or even geek market. I think even hard core geeks are going to get sick of messing with Linux. As some of us know when you get older, you just want sh*t to work and the only thing I want to geek on Is hardware.
Obviously you don't know any hardcore geeks or even normal geeks. The people you thought of as Geeks may be marsians, but as far as i know geeks, few of them even consider fiddling in windows because it takes so much time to get things to work properly and start doing something, its really a hassle for most of them. Yeah, maybe if you get older, you just want the sh*t to work just like windose.

But as you stated in the first part of your post which i forgot to quote, Linux is not meant for that. Linux should behave on its own and not try to mimic windose or the fruitthemed gadget platforms.
With Unix oses like Irix or BSD there were many approaches for a GUI which may never have been used by a broad mass because of price and availability, but that does not mean, that these approaches were flawed.

Take the taskbar for example. The Theory is that these important menus should be somewhere easy to get to. So Apple decided it would be best located on one of the longer screen edges because the mouse is most likely to go there some time. the menu would be on one side of it and the program bar would hold the title. so you have to go to the taskbar, select the menu (startbutton in windose) in the corner to get to your programs menu or open up a file browser. in theory that is nice because you can do it with few mouse commands.
But instead of mooving the mouse to a screenedge or corner and clicking, wouldn't it be far easier to just rightclick to open up the program menu? On unix systems like the graphically far advanced Irix or the WorkstationOS Solaris, a rightclick opens the menu anywhere on the screen where you actually are. leftclick then selects and starts the application.  Why have most Xbased window manager changed this intuitive scheme for an archaic windows theme with a Program menu button in the corner?

What if you want to edit a picture or graphics? Nowadays you have to think of the Pictureformat, start the right application klick open and browse through the files or import it into a new document. Why all the hassle? All i want is my Picture, i dont want to know Corel Draw or Adobe Photoshop, if i wasn't brainwashed by M$ far ago, i would just open the place where my picture is first. In Windows i would then realize that the viewer with the file is associated to is not the program to edit that file and i have to klick right and through several unconvenient dialoge boxes to get it opened. One really needs to memorize about all these applications and which one to use best for which purpose, then start it and open the file with it. But why should i care about a Program name and file or format as a user? That is so abstract from what i want to do, i'm essentially thinking first about my data and what i want to do and not about adobe and that they probably have the right tool. Why not start a Filebrowser, select the file open a menu with rightklick with my file in the center and all the programms which can handle the format sorted around it? Then i just drag the file over the Program i chosed to use and it opens the thing like in good ol OS/2. When i want to save it, i dont want to have all these dialogues again, i want to put it right at the place i decide and not what the os wants me to try first. I could just drag the image into the filebrowser window and it would be saved at the point i let go off it, maybe with a rightclick during the letting off to close the application in the same movement. Would be much easier for new users to learn these Programs, wouldn't it?

Also why is a menu always with these drop down things, why do buttons all have a rectangle shape which is hard to hit? why not work with directions? as directions are essentially what i can do with the mouse. People have a hard time to browse through multiple very long context menus which pop up one after another and if u miss one you can probably start from the beginning. Why not just give a little push to the mouse in the right directen and there u go? Menus would be easiest if the options where distributed 360° around the mousecursor. Even if the mousecursor is at the edge of the screen the menu could start in a transparent window all over the screen always looking the same and always functioning the same intuitive way wether your mouse is at the edge of the screen or in the middle, just by recognition of the impulse direction. Think of crysis menu for your OS...

Why do most menus get sorted in an alphabetical order and get all mixed up again when i install a new program? I look for the program button at the same place where it always was until now. so if i distribute the program icons on the menuscreen evenly and next time i install a programm just put it between two other and scale the buttons accordingly, every program could sit at its original place and have its original direction in my 360° arch. also i could open up another 360°arch as another layer over the whole screen if one menuitem has a large additional context menu. Just rightclick to close the first layer of contextmenus. Multiple rightclick or escape and you're back at the desktop from as many nested complicated menus as you want. you can get through dozens of menus with just one rightclick and a few nuances of your mouse ina certain direction, without the risk of not hitting the right button or starting all over again with the menus.

There are so many ways to stand out and do things in an intelligent way and actually there are also some groups who make them into real working software (not with all these suggestions, as they are my own ideas though some share similarities with available software). Sadly all mainstream distros do not make use of these great inventions, as they all try to mimic windose and macOS and even though they do a lot better than their role models and sometimes even in advance of them(f.e. 3d desktop), they never really stand out. Its a shame to see Linux Distros like Ubuntu as a poor imitation of Softwaretrends in closed Software development. Linux open sauce should find its own asthetics and usage principles, it is not always the best way the more people do it. In fact the more people do it its probably not the best way as only few people know the right things to do but most just follow a suboptimal mass movement.

What I was trying to say was I like Linux and would like to see It become more of a mainstream system. I was just pointing out allot of obvious reasons why It has not. Sure there are better Ideas out there, but Ideas alone get nowhere. It's always the dick with the most money and Influence that wins. Ideas these days are nothing but fodder for large corporations to plunder.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 06:58:54 PM by roosterbaby! » Logged
rambaldi
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« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2009, 10:50:57 PM »

I call Linux a closed OS because It's most definitely not a mass market or even geek market. I think even hard core geeks are going to get sick of messing with Linux. As some of us know when you get older, you just want sh*t to work and the only thing I want to geek on Is hardware.
Obviously you don't know any hardcore geeks or even normal geeks. The people you thought of as Geeks may be marsians, but as far as i know geeks, few of them even consider fiddling in windows because it takes so much time to get things to work properly and start doing something, its really a hassle for most of them. Yeah, maybe if you get older, you just want the sh*t to work just like windose.

But as you stated in the first part of your post which i forgot to quote, Linux is not meant for that. Linux should behave on its own and not try to mimic windose or the fruitthemed gadget platforms.
With Unix oses like Irix or BSD there were many approaches for a GUI which may never have been used by a broad mass because of price and availability, but that does not mean, that these approaches were flawed.

Take the taskbar for example. The Theory is that these important menus should be somewhere easy to get to. So Apple decided it would be best located on one of the longer screen edges because the mouse is most likely to go there some time. the menu would be on one side of it and the program bar would hold the title. so you have to go to the taskbar, select the menu (startbutton in windose) in the corner to get to your programs menu or open up a file browser. in theory that is nice because you can do it with few mouse commands.
But instead of mooving the mouse to a screenedge or corner and clicking, wouldn't it be far easier to just rightclick to open up the program menu? On unix systems like the graphically far advanced Irix or the WorkstationOS Solaris, a rightclick opens the menu anywhere on the screen where you actually are. leftclick then selects and starts the application.  Why have most Xbased window manager changed this intuitive scheme for an archaic windows theme with a Program menu button in the corner?

What if you want to edit a picture or graphics? Nowadays you have to think of the Pictureformat, start the right application klick open and browse through the files or import it into a new document. Why all the hassle? All i want is my Picture, i dont want to know Corel Draw or Adobe Photoshop, if i wasn't brainwashed by M$ far ago, i would just open the place where my picture is first. In Windows i would then realize that the viewer with the file is associated to is not the program to edit that file and i have to klick right and through several unconvenient dialoge boxes to get it opened. One really needs to memorize about all these applications and which one to use best for which purpose, then start it and open the file with it. But why should i care about a Program name and file or format as a user? That is so abstract from what i want to do, i'm essentially thinking first about my data and what i want to do and not about adobe and that they probably have the right tool. Why not start a Filebrowser, select the file open a menu with rightklick with my file in the center and all the programms which can handle the format sorted around it? Then i just drag the file over the Program i chosed to use and it opens the thing like in good ol OS/2. When i want to save it, i dont want to have all these dialogues again, i want to put it right at the place i decide and not what the os wants me to try first. I could just drag the image into the filebrowser window and it would be saved at the point i let go off it, maybe with a rightclick during the letting off to close the application in the same movement. Would be much easier for new users to learn these Programs, wouldn't it?

Also why is a menu always with these drop down things, why do buttons all have a rectangle shape which is hard to hit? why not work with directions? as directions are essentially what i can do with the mouse. People have a hard time to browse through multiple very long context menus which pop up one after another and if u miss one you can probably start from the beginning. Why not just give a little push to the mouse in the right directen and there u go? Menus would be easiest if the options where distributed 360° around the mousecursor. Even if the mousecursor is at the edge of the screen the menu could start in a transparent window all over the screen always looking the same and always functioning the same intuitive way wether your mouse is at the edge of the screen or in the middle, just by recognition of the impulse direction. Think of crysis menu for your OS...

Why do most menus get sorted in an alphabetical order and get all mixed up again when i install a new program? I look for the program button at the same place where it always was until now. so if i distribute the program icons on the menuscreen evenly and next time i install a programm just put it between two other and scale the buttons accordingly, every program could sit at its original place and have its original direction in my 360° arch. also i could open up another 360°arch as another layer over the whole screen if one menuitem has a large additional context menu. Just rightclick to close the first layer of contextmenus. Multiple rightclick or escape and you're back at the desktop from as many nested complicated menus as you want. you can get through dozens of menus with just one rightclick and a few nuances of your mouse ina certain direction, without the risk of not hitting the right button or starting all over again with the menus.

There are so many ways to stand out and do things in an intelligent way and actually there are also some groups who make them into real working software (not with all these suggestions, as they are my own ideas though some share similarities with available software). Sadly all mainstream distros do not make use of these great inventions, as they all try to mimic windose and macOS and even though they do a lot better than their role models and sometimes even in advance of them(f.e. 3d desktop), they never really stand out. Its a shame to see Linux Distros like Ubuntu as a poor imitation of Softwaretrends in closed Software development. Linux open sauce should find its own asthetics and usage principles, it is not always the best way the more people do it. In fact the more people do it its probably not the best way as only few people know the right things to do but most just follow a suboptimal mass movement.

What I was trying to say was I like Linux and would like to see It become more of a mainstream system. I was just pointing out allot of obvious reasons why It has not. Sure there are better Ideas out there, but Ideas alone get nowhere. It's always the dick with the most money and Influence that wins. Ideas these days are nothing but fodder for large corporations to plunder.

You have that right there lol, no sooner would these cool navigation ideas be out than the next versions of Windows/Apple would have them
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roosterbaby!
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« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2009, 06:00:14 AM »

Pretty much what I said Is what allot of the posters are saying.

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/10things/?p=1225&tag=main;banner
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