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Author Topic: Typos, spelling and grammar  (Read 15716 times)
ghell
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« on: December 15, 2008, 02:51:41 PM »

Fudzilla is a joke among overclockers. There's no dancing around it. Nobody takes it seriously and if anyone dares quote a fudzilla article, they are shot down and ridiculed. Even the name implies it.

However, I think the biggest reason for this is that many (most?) of the articles have very poor grammar and spelling. I know that for several of the authors, English is not their first language but most of these mistakes would be caught by a simple (English) spell checker and the quality of the articles would be significantly improved if they were proof read before publication (by someone with a firm grasp of English - even some of the English authors make mistakes from time to time).

How can you trust an article if it has a large number of mistakes in it? They look like they were written by children. Journalists, in particular, are expected to have a better than average grasp of the language that they are writing articles in.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 03:02:01 PM by ghell » Logged
CJ
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« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2008, 09:57:42 AM »

Dear sir,

I quite enjoyed your post, as most people don't bash us openly but rather chose to do so in other forums. Everyone reserves the right to their own opinion, and we respect that, so no complains there. Smiley

However, the quality of English is something that we should still improve (we improved a lot so far, mind you) and we're quite aware of that. But bear in mind that the same people who laugh at us for not being 100% correct, are not always correct themselves (even worse, I mean just read some forums), and usualy speak one language only.

What I'm trying to say is - we're doing our best to improve each and every aspect of the site, but laughing at our language skills doesn't quite help us in doing that. Has any of those "haters" ever tried to write on other language than their own? Have any of them ever been writing on a cellpone while waiting for their flight? Have any of them done both of this with a 10-15 minute deadline for 4-5 articles, because if they get on that flight and don't write them, our readers will have to stare at yesterday's stories?

I sincerely regret that we never get a pat on the back for at least trying to deliver information on a different language, but rather get bashed for language issues, which can really be discouraging at times.

Nedim Hadzic CJ,
Fudzilla staff.
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bugga321
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« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2008, 05:34:40 PM »

Im sorry and dont ba me for being honest...

your English sucks ... lol some / a lot of your posts do read quite funny, I am Australian and well to be honest everyone to use sounds funny, Anyhow as a publisher content is king grammar is a bonus lol.

But please take his on board....... Stop paying them / Fudzilla out !! at the end of the day you turn up here everyday to catch up on the latest Tech news !! if you want to learn English go to School !!!

Schools wont teach you want will make Crysis run better now will they Huh hahah I have a good point right ??


Anyway here is a suggestion for fudzilla..... Hire / employ a person from every country in the world to re-write you great work ... lmao either way you look at it some country is going to feel left out right ??


Personal I think Fudzilla are doing a great job !! and seeing a error here or there just reminds us that we are Human at the end of the day !! if you dont like human errors move to another plannet if your smart enough.
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ghell
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« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2008, 08:44:16 PM »

This thread wasn't an attempt at bashing. I like Fudzilla, which is why I made this thread. It's a nice easy way to get the information I want quickly. I even wrote a web application that filters the normal RSS feed to my specifications which makes it even better*. This is a suggestion forum and I'm making a suggestion that should remove one of Fudzilla's biggest flaws and give it a lot more credibility. A spelling checker really isn't that hard to use.

The spelling has improved recently but probably because Fudo doesn't seem to be writing nearly as many articles as he used to.

I'm certainly not laughing at the English used in the articles and, realistically, writing articles in English isn't something that you're ever likely to be commended for. I'm glad that they are in English or I'd have to look elsewhere. If you wrote them in your own languages (Austrian? Slovak?) your target audience would be tiny by comparison and Fudzilla would never have grown as quickly as it has. I did say "I know that for several of the authors, English is not their first language" but English spell checkers are both free and instant (as a minimal solution) and I'm sure you can find one or two people around the world with good enough English to proof read articles before publication, which takes a matter of minutes.

What's the point in having a suggestion forum if you just brush off any suggestions that people make and then complain that the suggestion forum isn't full of thanks and appreciation?

Surely the articles don't go out live from your "cellpone"s without first going through some kind of editorial process? What about all of those cheeky "sub.ed" comments?

bugga:
I don't even know what your point is, let alone whether it is good or even valid. I'm not suggesting this improvement in order to turn Fudzilla into an English lesson, I'm suggesting it to significantly improve Fudzilla's credibility and make it less of a laughing stock. Perhaps then, people wouldn't "bash ... in other forums". Employing a massive internationalisation team is obviously infeasible and just plain silly but luckily it's not needed, as the only published language is currently English. Spell checking software costs nothing and proof readers could either be paid a bare minimum (proof reading approx. 20 small articles a day doesn't take long) or may possibly even volunteer. Maybe that's just the Linux talking. As long as the articles aren't significantly delayed any solution is fine.





* hint: another suggestion - (more) customisation in the RSS such as filtering out categories. For example, corporate takeovers and mergers are completely boring IMO and personally I don't care if organisations like Oracle and SAP will ever have little orglings so I filter out the "news" category. Others may only want to read the "mobiles" category.
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fwoot
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« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2008, 10:02:21 AM »

no one cares, and those people who do are the freaks who dont even play pc games but rather do benchmarks all day

it's time to get over it
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CJ
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« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2008, 10:24:27 AM »

OK, we might've gone off on the wrong foot Cheesy

Maybe I didn't emphasize the fact that all of us here at fudzilla really, REALLY appreciate all of your comments and suggestions, and what I said wasn't supposed to "brush off your suggestion" but rather acknowledge it Smiley. However, we get these kinds of complaints from time to time, which kinda implies that we're not improving - again a bit discouraging. Sad

Editorial process? Yes, of course it does go trough one, but surely you must know that in this business, time is money and speed is of the essence. Sometimes it's just important to get the facts out quick, and spellchecking can be done later. And Fudo writes as much as he used to, don't worry about him, he's like this tireless machine-man. Cheesy

Also, spellcheckers do not fix all problems, sometimes they (after fixing typos) detect the whole sentence as correct, as it indeed is gramatically correct, but miss the fact that no one talks like that - thus sentences "read funny". That is a direct result of not being able to think on english, being non-native speakers and all.

As for proof readers - there's no such thing as "paying the bare minimum" or "volunteering", you know that. And yes, gotta love that Linux, but we'll have to wait a fair bit more before we see those methods becoming common in real life Sad

However, we will strive to get better, as we constantly did so far (did we?), and we DO appreciate the suggestions. I particularly liked the cathegory filtering suggestion, and I'll be sure to pass that one on, as I'm of the same opinion Smiley

Nedim Hadzic CJ,
Fudzilla staff.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 10:30:01 AM by CJ » Logged
Nele
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« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2008, 11:02:15 AM »

This thread wasn't an attempt at bashing. I like Fudzilla, which is why I made this thread. It's a nice easy way to get the information I want quickly. I even wrote a web application that filters the normal RSS feed to my specifications which makes it even better*. This is a suggestion forum and I'm making a suggestion that should remove one of Fudzilla's biggest flaws and give it a lot more credibility. A spelling checker really isn't that hard to use.

Don't worry, we're not that sensitive in this part of the world. We know there's still a lot of room for improvement, and we're working to resolve some issues, both technical and organizational.

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The spelling has improved recently but probably because Fudo doesn't seem to be writing nearly as many articles as he used to.

Nah, Fudo still does 4-5 stories a day, but I manage to edit them prior to posting, which sometimes isn't the case (phone, airport etc.)

Quote
I'm certainly not laughing at the English used in the articles and, realistically, writing articles in English isn't something that you're ever likely to be commended for. I'm glad that they are in English or I'd have to look elsewhere. If you wrote them in your own languages (Austrian? Slovak?) your target audience would be tiny by comparison and Fudzilla would never have grown as quickly as it has. I did say "I know that for several of the authors, English is not their first language" but English spell checkers are both free and instant (as a minimal solution) and I'm sure you can find one or two people around the world with good enough English to proof read articles before publication, which takes a matter of minutes.

Spell checkers help, but they can't fix everything - you always have to proof read and edit stuff, and it takes a lot of time to fix everything, especially if you use RSS, as you're likely to read a story as soon as it's published, and not 10-15 minutes later, when it's edited for the second time. Austrian doesn't exist, they speak German, and we're Bosnian, not Slovakian. Smiley

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What's the point in having a suggestion forum if you just brush off any suggestions that people make and then complain that the suggestion forum isn't full of thanks and appreciation?

Nobody is brushing aside your suggestion, we reply to almost all emails and comments. Try mailing me and you'll get a reply within a few hours.

Quote
Surely the articles don't go out live from your "cellpone"s without first going through some kind of editorial process? What about all of those cheeky "sub.ed" comments?

Sometimes they do, but not on a daily basis. When I've got enough time, I fix them and add the cheeky sub.ed. comments.

Quote
bugga:
I don't even know what your point is, let alone whether it is good or even valid. I'm not suggesting this improvement in order to turn Fudzilla into an English lesson, I'm suggesting it to significantly improve Fudzilla's credibility and make it less of a laughing stock. Perhaps then, people wouldn't "bash ... in other forums". Employing a massive internationalisation team is obviously infeasible and just plain silly but luckily it's not needed, as the only published language is currently English. Spell checking software costs nothing and proof readers could either be paid a bare minimum (proof reading approx. 20 small articles a day doesn't take long) or may possibly even volunteer. Maybe that's just the Linux talking. As long as the articles aren't significantly delayed any solution is fine.

Everything costs money in the end. If we can get a proofreader or reviewer/news writer for the same cash, we'll go with the reviewer/news writer. This doesn't mean we won't hire more people to improve the quality of English on the site. We're just getting started, we're still growing.

Quote
* hint: another suggestion - (more) customisation in the RSS such as filtering out categories. For example, corporate takeovers and mergers are completely boring IMO and personally I don't care if organisations like Oracle and SAP will ever have little orglings so I filter out the "news" category. Others may only want to read the "mobiles" category.

This is a good idea and we'll probably include it when we redesign the site, I'm hoping we'll get round to it.

Thanks for your comments, feel free to mail us anytime. (I don't read the forum much)
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CJ
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« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2008, 11:52:00 AM »

^^^

Yeah, he doesn't read forums much, the cheeky sub.ed. comments wear him out. Tough work those, eh? Cheesy Tongue



Nedim Hadzic CJ,
Fudzilla staff.
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Nele
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« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2008, 12:10:18 PM »

^^^

Yeah, he doesn't read forums much, the cheeky sub.ed. comments wear him out. Tough work those, eh? Cheesy Tongue



Nedim Hadzic CJ,
Fudzilla staff.

You're paid (poorly) to translate crap, not mess around on the board.

Now, where are my reviews? (crkni!-sub.ed.)
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ghell
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« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2008, 03:46:25 PM »

Yet another completely useless post from fwoot I see. I suppose that's what you have to do if post counts are how you rate your life.


I agree with these points. Spell checkers often don't catch typos (for example, a recent typo "ever" rather than "every" when both are real words) and grammar checkers are not as common as spell checkers because the lexical analysis is much harder than just checking each word against a dictionary and suggesting alternatives based on the least number of differences. Grammar checkers also tend to give cryptic output messages that even native English speakers struggle with and I usually read as "rephrase this sentence until I stop complaining at you".

I was hoping that whoever edits the articles could simply run them through a quick spell checker too. However, even if the articles are not all edited, there must be some way to hook some spell checker (if nix, ispell, aspell, myspell are examples) up to the submission system and have it run automatically.

Perhaps the RSS isn't receiving the edits or is caching the unedited originals? I only check Fudzilla a few times a day rather than hammering on the RSS by keeping an RSS aggregator open so even if it is edited after 15 minutes, I should still be able to see the edit. Edit: RSS just links to the normal page so any problem with not receiving an up to date version of an article would be a problem in the normal page rather than the RSS. I actually get the "printer friendly" version from my filter because it is much easier to scrape.

For "paying the bare minimum" for proof readers, if the better English speaking authors aren't willing to proof read for the worse, I meant that you may be able to pay by man hours or on a per-article basis. Proof reading an article takes almost no time at all as the articles are usually just a few hundred words,. Most of the time would be spent waiting around for articles to be published and if you could get away with not paying someone to just sit around waiting, it would be a lot cheaper. If there is already someone in the office that speaks (or rather writes) good English, it could just be added to their job description with a slight pay rise rather than employing an entirely new person, which would avoid any minimum wage problems.

I'm only suggesting any of this because I would prefer that Fudzilla be a bit more of a credible source that I could cite without being ridiculed. I'm probably as sick of all the "bashing" as any of you and just want it to stop. You can't change things like assumptions that you make that later turn out to be wrong or misinterpreting those you interview (which is fine as long as you quote them, allowing the reader to also make their own interpretation) but this is a relatively easy thing to improve to increase credibility. Like Wikipedia, I'm not expecting that Fudzilla will ever be cited anywhere important because of the nature of the articles, leading to the two problems I just mentioned, but you should at least be able to quote articles on overclocking forums without being laughed at by teenagers Roll Eyes

Quote from: Nele
Austrian doesn't exist, they speak German, and we're Bosnian, not Slovakian
You have my apologies. I guessed Austrian because you have referred a few times to an Austrian (.at) price comparison site as "local" and I knew you were from around there somewhere Wink I wonder if that's as big an insult as calling me French, as it's around here somewhere - people tend to hate being labelled as a member of their neighbouring countries so sorry again. Smiley I should have got Bosnian from CJ's (.ba) email address on this forum.

By the way, I have acknowledged recent (in the last 6 months) improvements in both of the suggestion threads that I have posted to Wink
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 03:51:38 PM by ghell » Logged
fwoot
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« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2008, 07:37:24 PM »

I suppose that's what you have to do if post counts are how you rate your life.


.......how did you come to this conclusion?
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Nele
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« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2008, 10:59:09 PM »

I agree with these points. Spell checkers often don't catch typos (for example, a recent typo "ever" rather than "every" when both are real words) and grammar checkers are not as common as spell checkers because the lexical analysis is much harder than just checking each word against a dictionary and suggesting alternatives based on the least number of differences. Grammar checkers also tend to give cryptic output messages that even native English speakers struggle with and I usually read as "rephrase this sentence until I stop complaining at you".

Exactly.

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I was hoping that whoever edits the articles could simply run them through a quick spell checker too. However, even if the articles are not all edited, there must be some way to hook some spell checker (if nix, ispell, aspell, myspell are examples) up to the submission system and have it run automatically.

I run the ones I publish (starting 9AM CET) through a spell checker. A spell checker is in the system, but unfortunately - it's crap.

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Perhaps the RSS isn't receiving the edits or is caching the unedited originals? I only check Fudzilla a few times a day rather than hammering on the RSS by keeping an RSS aggregator open so even if it is edited after 15 minutes, I should still be able to see the edit. Edit: RSS just links to the normal page so any problem with not receiving an up to date version of an article would be a problem in the normal page rather than the RSS. I actually get the "printer friendly" version from my filter because it is much easier to scrape.

You're right. Unfortunately, as far as I know, our RSS feed isn't affected by subsequent edits. This is just one of the issues we plan to address shortly, when we redesign the site.

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For "paying the bare minimum" for proof readers, if the better English speaking authors aren't willing to proof read for the worse, I meant that you may be able to pay by man hours or on a per-article basis. Proof reading an article takes almost no time at all as the articles are usually just a few hundred words,. Most of the time would be spent waiting around for articles to be published and if you could get away with not paying someone to just sit around waiting, it would be a lot cheaper. If there is already someone in the office that speaks (or rather writes) good English, it could just be added to their job description with a slight pay rise rather than employing an entirely new person, which would avoid any minimum wage problems.

There's always a catch. First of all, most of our native English speakers are not based in Europe, so there's a huge time difference to take into account. We could hire a Brit, but they're too expensive. As I said in my previous post, it all comes down to numbers. If we're faced with the choice of hiring a competent author/reviewer for the same salary, who will deliver good, up to date content, or a native English proof reader, we tend to go with the former option. Hopefully, if we keep growing at this rate, we will be able to afford both soon.

We made a choice to deliver more content, albeit with a few kinks, rather than less content in perfect English. I understand English is your native tongue, but please keep in mind that for most of our readers it's a second language (third even Smiley). As for the time it takes to proof read an article, well you're right it doesn't take too long, but you're also right about waiting around. We start publishing articles when Lars wakes up in Taipei, so that would be 9AM GMT+7. Six hours later the European part of the team wakes up and we publish a lot of stuff over the next 2-3 hours. We don't stop at that, and as you've probably noticed, we publish additional articles during the day. It's 10PM in Europe, and I'm gonna publish a review soon. In other words, there's almost no way a single person could cope with the hours. It would be possible, but if content remained unpublished and waited in the engine for hours, and that's unacceptable in this line of work.

Quote
I'm only suggesting any of this because I would prefer that Fudzilla be a bit more of a credible source that I could cite without being ridiculed. I'm probably as sick of all the "bashing" as any of you and just want it to stop. You can't change things like assumptions that you make that later turn out to be wrong or misinterpreting those you interview (which is fine as long as you quote them, allowing the reader to also make their own interpretation) but this is a relatively easy thing to improve to increase credibility. Like Wikipedia, I'm not expecting that Fudzilla will ever be cited anywhere important because of the nature of the articles, leading to the two problems I just mentioned, but you should at least be able to quote articles on overclocking forums without being laughed at by teenagers Roll Eyes

I understand your concern, after all I work here and it would be in my best interest to improve the quality of our content. The thing is, people tend to focus on the quality of language used, rather than the quality of content. I'm aware of this - when people run out of valid arguments, they have nothing left and they start bashing your grammar, spelling, then they go on to nationality, religion, race... You get the picture.  Smiley You're one of our readers - you wouldn't be if we got the facts wrong, lied, or misinformed you.

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You have my apologies. I guessed Austrian because you have referred a few times to an Austrian (.at) price comparison site as "local" and I knew you were from around there somewhere Wink I wonder if that's as big an insult as calling me French, as it's around here somewhere - people tend to hate being labelled as a member of their neighbouring countries so sorry again. Smiley I should have got Bosnian from CJ's (.ba) email address on this forum.

Fudo lives in Vienna, as do a few of our reviewers, hence the "local" sites and stores in Vienna. The rest of us are scattered around the world. Austrians speak German, but they hate being called Germans. Bosnians speak bad German, but most would like to emigrate to Germany and don't mind being called German, or Austrian for that matter. Slovakia is nice too, great beer, women and ski-resorts.

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By the way, I have acknowledged recent (in the last 6 months) improvements in both of the suggestion threads that I have posted to Wink

Next time you have a suggestion, contact us via email. I promise we won't send your address to Nigerian spammers. Smiley

Nermin
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Bono
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« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2008, 11:56:25 PM »

Nele use then spell checker build in Firefox.
@ghell we also like linux, site is runing on linux server.  Wink

RSS issue should be fixed with new design which i hope it will be available before 2nd anniversary of site.
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Nele
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« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2008, 01:13:09 AM »

Nele use then spell checker build in Firefox.
@ghell we also like linux, site is runing on linux server.  Wink

RSS issue should be fixed with new design which i hope it will be available before 2nd anniversary of site.

Wait a minute, I'm using that one already. It's crap. As limited as Paris Hilton's intellect.

If it's free, it can't be good.

Apart from our server, works like a charm, stable like Wall Street.
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fwoot
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« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2008, 07:03:50 AM »

awesome where do i invest Wink
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